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re: Lets Talk Politics
Posted on 2/25/16 at 3:30 pm to Cooter Davenport
Posted on 2/25/16 at 3:30 pm to Cooter Davenport
Those are some pretty damn heavy generalizations (especially the student loan part, my generation is absolutely burdened in a manner never seen before, plus generational poverty leading to desperation-related crime is real), but I mostly agree. Reddit liberals give the rest of us a bad name
This post was edited on 2/25/16 at 3:38 pm
Posted on 2/25/16 at 3:32 pm to agalloch
quote:
Sorry, didn't mean to come on so strongly (although I do feel strongly about the abortion issue). I'd rather not shite-sling, either. Even if it means me dropping the subject itt
That was in no way directed at your or anybody else. I've just been there before, and I know it leads nowhere. Best to just nip in the bud I guess.
Posted on 2/25/16 at 3:50 pm to TbirdSpur2010
quote:
As a Christian who is pro-life, I really wish the pro-life cause were disassociated from religious convictions.
I really really wish the abortion debate was disassociated from politics. At this point Row v Wade is law of the land, and even if someone doesn't like the status quo the legal road that got us where we are hit the end of the rope because we have had a conservative leaning Supreme Court for decades and they won't touch it. That is the definition of a dead end, but the way people campaign against it denies that reality.
I mean there is still some of it that interacts with modern politics- like the abortion clinic restriction in Texas- but even the fate of those laws will be determined in courts and not statehouses. I feel like having it be a "political issue" makes too many people single issue voters that are disconnected from modern politics, which really doesn't further the national political discourse. It also creates a false litmus test for candidates on both sides when really it should have turned into a non-political personal belief decades ago.
I feel the same way about drug problems- they are a health issue and not a legal/political issue. I wish the billions we have dumped into the drug war would have been spent building a good security net for those with mental issues, which would include drug addicts. The tide is starting to turn on that but not for the right reasons- states just see a way to cover budget shortfalls. The best case scenario would be to tax places like pot shops to create mental health clinics, but a lot of people take a hard line approach to something they haven't dealt with personally.
A lot of politics are like that, which is why our system of government can be so dysfunctional sometimes.
Posted on 2/25/16 at 3:52 pm to agalloch
quote:
especially the student loan part, my generation is absolutely burdened in a manner never seen before
Which was caused by the socialist utopian delusion that "EVERYONE MUST GO TO COLLEGE" and the subsequent government support of student loans, which made them easier to obtain in larger and larger amounts, thus encouraging colleges to raise tuition more and more, all the while, in the background, from the time they can speak, these utopian elements in our society have been telling kids they HAVE to go to college, so they go and take these silly loans because they think they have to. So now the same socialists who created this tuition bubble by having the government involved in the student loan business are bemoaning the size of the loans. LOL
Posted on 2/25/16 at 3:53 pm to cardboardboxer
There is nothing worse than the single-issue voter.
Posted on 2/25/16 at 3:57 pm to Old Sarge
quote:
Well, it is
Agree to disagree
Medically, scientifically, a fetus and a baby are distinctly different to a certain point. The lines become more blurred that farther into pregnancy you get.
Of course a 36 week old fetus is effectively the same thing as a baby. It can function as a baby in every way outside the womb. A 24 week old fetus? It can survive with highly advanced medical care but cannot live outside the mother naturally. A 12 week fetus? Objectively different on a physiological, anatomical and biochemical level. Such a fetus lacks even basic mammalian consciousness.
So I would agree that a late term abortion could be called murder, and in fact it IS called murder in every state. I disagree that we cannot differentiate at any point and frankly such an absurd position hurts to pro-life movement.
Abortion is an awful practice that exists largely to propagate a lack of personal responsibility, but it's just not the same thing as stabbing a toddler to death.
Posted on 2/25/16 at 4:02 pm to Roger Klarvin
Also, for as much as the left likes to talk about racism, I can think of no more racist practice than abortion in terms of net results.
Blacks abort their children at an alarming rate much higher than any other group. Abortion services are marketed to young black women disproportionately. Many of the original abortion supporters in the early and middle 20th century believed it the most effective way to curtail the growth and success of blacks. It effectively serves as a way to limit the number of black children born, especially low income black children. But somehow, talking about the absence of black fathers is racist while the support of abortion in empowering.
Blacks abort their children at an alarming rate much higher than any other group. Abortion services are marketed to young black women disproportionately. Many of the original abortion supporters in the early and middle 20th century believed it the most effective way to curtail the growth and success of blacks. It effectively serves as a way to limit the number of black children born, especially low income black children. But somehow, talking about the absence of black fathers is racist while the support of abortion in empowering.
This post was edited on 2/25/16 at 4:04 pm
Posted on 2/25/16 at 4:08 pm to agalloch
quote:
There is nothing worse than the single-issue voter.
I don't mind people who are passionate about an issue, or who support candidates that share their beliefs on that issue. I just think that it is a waste of time if the person you are electing can't change anything about that issue anyway.
I feel the same way about the death penalty. Personally I am against the death penalty, mostly because it costs more to execute a person than life in prison because of the legal standards in place. When I debate people who are pro death penalty their retort is "well it shouldn't be that way, it should be cheaper." Well, it isn't buddy and it will never be for the same reason elected politicians can't change the abortion status quo. If someone supports the death penalty they need to accept that they are supporting paying extra to send a message to potential criminals (or to get revenue on murders, the motivations differ). Pretending that some sort of fantasyland fix for the costs is in the works isn't a rational option.
Too much of our political discourse in this country is based on fantasy narratives instead of reality. I think all the promises Bernie is making are just as impractical as Cruz wanting to stack the Supreme Court or cut off whole departments in the Federal government- it aint happening. And then we wonder why our parties can't agree on common ground- because no one can agree what the ground is!
Unfortunately I see it getting worse before it gets better. Nuanced issues aren't Americans cup of tea, we want easy to digest soundbytes and for all issues to be represented by inaccurate but simple allegories. This election is just proof of that desire for everything to be boiled down to absolutes that can fit within the Twitter character limits.
Posted on 2/25/16 at 4:09 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
24 week old fetus
At 23 weeks and 6 days every planned parenthood abortion clinic would gladly have cut up and disposed of this child
Posted on 2/25/16 at 4:11 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:That dog doesn't hunt and it never will because marketing or no marketing, at the end of the day the individual black women themselves are the ones making those decisions. If they're the ones with agency and it's not being forced upon them by whites, the "abortion = black genocide" just comes off as ineffectual pandering.
Also, for as much as the left likes to talk about racism, I can think of no more racist practice than abortion in terms of net results.
Blacks abort their children at an alarming rate much higher than any other group. Abortion services are marketed to young black women disproportionately. Many of the original abortion supporters in the early and middle 20th century believed it the most effective way to curtail the growth and success of blacks. It effectively serves as a way to limit the number of black children born, especially low income black children. But somehow, talking about the absence of black fathers is racist while the support of abortion in empowering.
Black fathers, by contrast, are often deprived of agency by our clusterfrick of a criminal justice system.
This post was edited on 2/25/16 at 4:13 pm
Posted on 2/25/16 at 4:12 pm to Old Sarge
I don't disagree with you (though abortion is illegal at 23 weeks in many states), and I couldn't imagine ever aborting a child especially not one my wife was carrying.
My point was the baby pictured would have died had they been born at any point prior to the 1990s or so. It's not "the same thing" as a 40 week old fetus/baby.
My point was the baby pictured would have died had they been born at any point prior to the 1990s or so. It's not "the same thing" as a 40 week old fetus/baby.
Posted on 2/25/16 at 4:13 pm to cardboardboxer
quote:
I really really wish the abortion debate was disassociated from politics. At this point Row v Wade is law of the land
Roe ISN'T the law of the land. Planned Parenthood v. Casey essentially rejected the reasoning and trimester framework in Roe. The Court by a 5-4 vote upheld the decision of Roe, based almost entirely on stare decisis -- adherence to precedent.
The decision in Roe/Casey stands only so long as there are 5 votes in support on the court. A conservative replacement of Scalia, and one more conservative replacement of someone like Ginsburg, and that can change.
Here's the thing: don't think of courts, particularly the SCOTUS, as "courts". That's just part of their job now. Now they are also Super Legislatures. They are now the locus of decisionmaking for the BIGGEST issues we face as a nation. Not just social issues like abortion, EVERYTHING. Heller, Kelo, Citizens United these are all 5-4 decisions, as well.
This makes the stakes of this election so high. In fact, as much of a disaster as I think Trump would be as president, I would agree to a Trump presidency in a second if I could know FOR CERTAIN that he'd make SCOTUS nominees in the mold of Scalia.
Posted on 2/25/16 at 4:14 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
It can survive with highly advanced medical care but cannot live outside the mother naturally.
It's interesting you choose this point.
There are adults and seniors everywhere that CANNOT live without constant highly specialized medical intervention. Do their lives have no value since they cannot sustain them on their own?
Set a 1,2 or even 3 year old outside on its own, it will die of starvation or exposure. Should that be allowed?
Posted on 2/25/16 at 4:15 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
, I can think of no more racist practice than abortion in terms of net results.
Blacks abort their children at an alarming rate much higher than any other group.
When you consider the roots of PP and the....thoughtful....locations of a high percentage of their clinics, it's pretty damning.
Posted on 2/25/16 at 4:17 pm to Iosh
quote:
That dog doesn't hunt and it never will because marketing or no marketing, at the end of the day the individual black women themselves are the ones making those decisions.
It's not made out to be a decision often times. Studies show that nearly 90% of black woman regret their decision to abort within one year compared to 55% of white women.
Poor minority women tend to be pressured into it. I've seen it first hand sadly. It is often presented as their only choice. And 70% of PP clinics are located in areas where blacks make up the largest single group.
This post was edited on 2/25/16 at 4:19 pm
Posted on 2/25/16 at 4:18 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
Medically, scientifically, a fetus and a baby are distinctly different to a certain point. The lines become more blurred that farther into pregnancy you get.
Scientifically, the only difference is one of development. At every stage, the fetus is an individual Homo sapiens.
The only actual question is at what point one recognizes that the individual is a "human", in the sense that it has rights and moral standing.
Posted on 2/25/16 at 4:20 pm to Mirthomatic
quote:I am normally the last person to unthinkingly embrace traditionalism but in this case I think Blackstone and the other early common-law scholars had it right. Quickening makes the most sense, at least until we know more about the neurological basis of consciousness.
The only actual question is at what point one recognizes that the individual is a "human", in the sense that it has rights and moral standing.
Posted on 2/25/16 at 4:22 pm to Mirthomatic
Well if you stab it through the mothers stomach at 14 weeks you go to jail for murdering a human
But if you cut it up and suck it out, well that's ok, it's just a growth and a choice
But if you cut it up and suck it out, well that's ok, it's just a growth and a choice
Posted on 2/25/16 at 4:24 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
Poor minority women tend to be pressured into it. I've seen it first hand sadly. It is often presented as their only choice. And 70% of PP clinics are located in areas where blacks make up the largest single group.
All of this.
Posted on 2/25/16 at 4:24 pm to Old Sarge
quote:
There are adults and seniors everywhere that CANNOT live without constant highly specialized medical intervention. Do their lives have no value since they cannot sustain them on their own?
It's not an issue of value, it's an issue of viability. Yes, such adults are less viable and in a physiologic sense less "human" than you and me. I would argue someone who is permanently dependent on life support and people in persistant vegitativd states are no longer "human" in a practical sense. Losing the ability to utilize the frontal lobe is a pretty significant cutoff.
quote:
Set a 1,2 or even 3 year old outside on its own, it will die of starvation or exposure. Should that be allowed?
You keep acting like I support abortion. I'm simply arguing that the reasons for not supporting aren't always foundationally solid.
This post was edited on 2/25/16 at 4:29 pm
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